Govel Geryow / discussion

This is the discussion related to the wiki page Govel Geryow.

Start a thread for each word please

howlsedhes 1206816710|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

And let us have your suggestions …

Meur ras/ Many thanks !

Re: Start a thread for each word please

howlsedhes 1206816847|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

You start a thread with "New Post"

You continue an existing one with "Reply".

(Well I did't think it was all that obvious!)

Geryow noweth?

Anonymous (90.195.222.x) 1206820184|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Would you like us to offer the new words for the wanted list here???

Re: Geryow noweth?

howlsedhes 1206825116|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Give that man a prize.

Blackcurrants

Nosdan 1206867196|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Blackcurrants - Corynt du?
blackcurrant - Coryntenn du?
a bunch of black currants - Coryntennow du?

Prunes

Nosdan 1206868310|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Dried plum fruit - Figys ploum?
A Dried plum - Figys ploumenn?
Some dried plums - Figys ploumennow?

Re: Prunes

Anonymous (81.151.34.x) 1206997031|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

My Breton dict. gives prun-sec'h for 'prunes'. So how about ploum-sygh in Kernewek?

Kothwas

Re: Prunes

Nosdan 1207334262|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Update on Plums/Prunes from Rev. Williams Dictionary. He has Aeran down for both Plums and prunes…

Currants

Nosdan 1206868589|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Currants is given in the morton nance memorial dictionary as

Fyges corynt. = Figys corynt?

Fyges is still used in dialect to mean any of the dried fruit. At least by my family it is.

Re: Currants

howlsedhes 1206925038|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Nance agrees with you, see his entry for "fygesyn", which seems to take care of most of the dried fruit. Figys ploum would then fit in for prunes. Note that for "plum puddin" Nance has "pellen fyges".

That leaves us with what to call fresh currants. Welsh doesn't seem to have a word other than cyren, cwrens from English I imagine. But has rhyfon for "blackcurrants". So maybe korynt(-enn) du (or koryns(-enn)??). Keep the figys bit for the dried version?

Re: Currants

Nosdan 1208017581|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

For a currant could you use Figysik perhaps as it would work for a colloquial term?

Hopefully

Anonymous (81.151.34.x) 1206996772|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

(This word is on Ken George's Wanted List)

In frequent colloquial usage in English: does Kernewek have a good equivalent?

One hears dell waytyav 'as I hope/expect' often, and I've never been happy with using this for 'as I HOPE', because of the range of meanings of gwaytya : 'to take care, mind, be sure to; hope, expect' [as given in GKK].

So could one use the word govenek here? Obviously dell usi govenek dhymm is too cumbersome, likewise herwydh ow govenek. How about a'm govenek or just a wovenek?

In Welsh the word gobeithio 'to hope' is used on its own (the infinitive) colloquially to mean 'hopefully'. So maybe in Kernewek just use govenek on its own? Why not?

Kothwas (Tony Snell)

Training

Anonymous (81.151.34.x) 1206998330|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Another word in Ken George's Wanted List.

(This is one I've wanted for a long time since I do a lot of it in rowing and expeditioning.)

I believe several European languages simply borrow the English word.

N. Williams' Eng-Cor dictionary has dyscans and megyans, but these don't supply the specific need. Welsh has hyfforddiant. It doesn't appear in my Breton dictionary.

We need a head-word 'to train' with which we can build words for 'trainer', 'training', and perhaps 'trainee' too.

There is the Welsh word (starred as obsolete in Y Geiradur Mawr) forddio 'to guide', and my guess (I'm not trained in lingusitics) is that hyfforddio means 'to guide well'. I wonder if Kernewek ever had the word fordhya meaning 'to guide'? To me this doesn't seem implausible.

So why not imitate Welsh and make hefordhya 'to train' ? Then one could have hefordhyas for 'trainer' (more euphonious than hefordhydh); hefordhyans 'training'; and maybe even hefordhesik 'trainee'.

If these did get into regular usage, then I could foresee their pronunciation developing into hevorrya, hevorryas, (perhaps even hevorrydh), hevorryans, hevor'zik.

Kothwas

Re: Training

howlsedhes 1207005124|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hmm, looks like it means something like "to ease one on one's way (to success?)". Is that what we mean by 'training', I'm not sure. I don't like your word for 'trainee'. What about hefordhyas as 'trainee' and then hefordhydh for a '(professional?) trainer'?

Re: Training

Anonymous (81.158.118.x) 1207036966|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Thanks for the comments.
Do you have Y Geiriadur Mawr (1958)?
In the list of prefixes and suffixes there, pp 445-446, one finds:

hy- (soft, 'well, fine', as in hyfryd, hygar.
'-able', as in hydrin, hylaw.

I simply guessed that the first of these two was relevant to the Old Welsh verb forddio.

I wonder if there is a Welsh linguist out there who could advise?

Kothwas

Re: Training

howlsedhes 1207094456|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

We already have hegar, hebleth and perhaps a few more, so you're building on an established pattern. IIRC it's the same prefix as Greek eu- as in euphony etc.

Continuation

Nosdan 1207322869|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Pesyans or is that used for something already?

Re: Continuation

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207345262|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I reckon that pesyans ia absolutely fine for 'continuation': it could scarcely mean anything else!

Kothwas

To Arrive

Nosdan 1207323030|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Is Dones actually used by anyone instead of Dos

In Rev. R. Williams Dictionary he says it can mean both to come and to arrive. Perhaps this could be used for that?

Re: To Arrive

Nosdan 1208372105|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

OR perhaps gordhos Completely + come, could be conjugated as dos

My re wordheuth ~ I have arrived
Prag na wordheuva an lyther? ~ why has the letter not arrived?
Orth Pensans ni a wra gordhos yn skon ~ We shall arrive at Penzance soon

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Collar

Nosdan 1207323964|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In dialect a twisted straw horse collar is called a Mungar and apparently in Rev. R Williams dictionary again Myngar was a horse collar/yoke. With Welsh cognat Mynwar/Mynci and Irish Muinee

Re: Collar

Nosdan 1208542069|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Ive also found reference to guiden old Cornish for a collar (presumably made of sticks) With welsh Cognate gwden this translates as a withe in English, a twisted rope made of willow. - I'm guessing this would then be gwiden in Kemmyn?

Attend

Anonymous (90.195.222.x) 1207333693|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have found a few examples of Atendya in various dictionaries…. Shame its such a blatant borrowing. But should be listed all the same.

Re: Attend

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207345070|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

In a quick search through the texts of the miracle plays, I found attendya only in Bywnans Meriasek (6 occurrences).

I'm currently trying to see if we can devise a word based on Celtic roots. Welsh has sylw for 'attention', in the sense of 'taking notice', 'giving consideration'.
Morton Nance's dictionary included selow 'to attend, listen hearken', which he based on Welsh and Breton. It's not included in Ken George's dictionaries. But might there be a case for digging it up for use as a new word?

Breton has evez(h) for (French) 'soin, attention'. I've asked Ken George if he knows the etymology of this word. Can anyone else throw any light on its formation, I wonder?

Kothwas

Conger/s and eels in general.

Nosdan 1207333938|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I have been searching Rev. Williams Dictionary loads so bear with me if all of the posts are cawgh.

He seems to think (and i'm starting to agree) That Sylli/es are Congers - OR at least sea eels. I think other eels might be better described as Sylli dowr. (or something like?)

Dislodge

Nosdan 1207334048|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

To lodge somewhere is to stay temporarily we have Ostya for lodge already, why not Anostya?

Re: Dislodge

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207346563|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I assumed that the meaning wanted here was 'to remove from an established or fixed position', so dilea might serve, in most cases, meaning 'to displace'.

Kothwas

Re: Dislodge

Nosdan 1208373697|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I was thinking more that if something is lodged its stuck somewhere, temporarily. So to me dislodge isn't quite them same as remove / displace. More move something on from its temporary position.

Ny yllis vy anostya an dren y glenys yn ow bryansenn ~ I could not dislodge the fishbone that stuck in my throat!

Yth anostis an garrek gans ow throes ~ I dislodged the rock with my foot.

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Re: Dislodge

howlsedhes 1210123412|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hmm, interesting. My first thought was disevel which is in the texts, but that really means 'upset from a standing position, tip/trip up'. Perhaps disedha 'unseat' would do sometimes, but maybe not if the object is really well and truly stuck as opposed to just fitted into place. In any case disedha would perhaps be too similar to desedha which means almost exactly the opposite. I'm not too happy about extending (an)ostya beyond human lodging. Are we perhaps too hung up on English here. Perhaps we just need different words for unstick (diglena, distaga), unfasten (distaga), remove (dilea) etc.?

Re: Dislodge

Anonymous (90.205.84.x) 1210197396|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I had kind of got attached to Anostya :P Oh well, I sort of agree… Ostya does that come from ost was that an English/French loan from Host…?

I don't like Disevel its definetly more suited to upset, or to unstand something!

Diglena, distaga and dilea sound more like your suggestions, unstick, unfasten and remove/delete respectively…

Disedha might work??? But as you say, its very similar to desedha, you could use an(e)sedha I think it works better without the first e of esedha. Wether thats permissible though???

Yth ansedhis an garrek gans ow throes

Informatics

Nosdan 1207334168|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Just a guess - Derivasonieth, its a bit less of a mouthful than anything containing Derivadow i can think of? Was there a new word in Bewnans Ke that meant Information?

Resignation

Nosdan 1207334349|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

CAn we use Daskorr to formulate something???

Daskoreth / Daskorva perhaps?

Re: Resignation

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207345625|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

For 'resignation' from employment, or from an official position, one could have omdhisoedha 'to remove oneself from office'.

Kothwas

Shallots

Nosdan 1207334895|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

There seems to be some ambiguity regarding Shallots, Leeks, Chives and Garlic.

For the first three Rev. Williams Uses Cenin, and for Garlic - Cenin ewinoc (Clawed Leaks!) apparently the welsh use the same.

Perhaps some clarification is needed for Shallots, Leeks, and Chives.

I propose…

Kenin - Leeks
Kenin (byghan/glas/moen) - Chives
Kenin (yowynk/byghan) / Onyonen (yowynk/byghan) - Shallots
Kenin (ewinek/gwyn)- Garlic

Solid

Nosdan 1207334947|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Why not Cales like the welsh use caled?

Spine

Nosdan 1207335068|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Rev. Williams says Mellow keyn or Ascorn an heyn

Unless of course by spine your after the spinal cord, which could be, funenn keyn

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To Spring (leap)

Nosdan 1207335120|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Whats wrong with lamma?

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Steady

Nosdan 1207335164|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Can we use Fyrv?

Re: Steady

Nosdan 1210974680|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Sad would probably fit and Sadya would work for the verb, this would also tie into the welsh Sad, Sadio(v)

Tart

Nosdan 1207335306|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Tart comes from Latin… It was a type of bread. I believe Torth is the Cornish form of Tart…?

Thus

Nosdan 1207335573|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I am not good enough at my Cornish to start using words like this, but I found some interesting things in Rev. Williams dictionary ( I know not again!!!!)

Pu a woras y'th colon cows yn delma worth iustis, who put it in thy heart to speak thus to a justice ? M.C. 81.

There are a few examples of the use of yn Delma I think its a contraction of Dell+yma. I couldn't find it in anybodies dictionaries, but there is a small part in Wellas' Grammar. I'm guessing it means As there is, which sort of works as thus.

Re: Thus

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207346023|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The word yndellma is in Ken George's dictionary with meanings 'like this, in this way'. So that's fine for 'thus' in most instances, I would think.

Also, in many contexts, ytho 'therefore, then, so, well then, in that case' (same source) should serve.

Kothwas

Re: Thus

Nosdan 1208017165|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I'm not sure yndellma should be listed as a complete word, yn dell'ma the seperate yn indicates it's an adverb, (like yn tien ~ completely) and the apostraphy should be used to indicate a contraction. There should be no problem in writing it in full either… yn dell yma skrifys / yn dell'ma skrifys ~ thus it is written

Varied

Nosdan 1207335885|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Again searching about in Rev. Williams dictionary I came across a Verb i've never heard/seen of…

Legria - To read, to vary, to change… And he quotes Pryce as the source.

If this is a useful verb. Perhaps we could create some new words from it,

Varied - Legriys or Legrek???

As I've said, no idea if its a proper word or not?

Re: Varied

Anonymous (86.159.216.x) 1207346315|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Nicholas Williams' dictionary has a lyes sort, a lyes ehen, dyvers which seem to me to suffice (though I'd spell them in the Kernwek Kemmyn way: a lies sort, a lies eghenn, divers - at least until such time when I have to change my habits!)

Kothwas

Re: Varied

Nosdan 1207406975|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Apparently Gendalls dictionary contains Legria - to change, corrupt,… lots of other changing type words.

Perhaps Legriys could mean Varied?

Further, variance could be Legrians?

Re: Varied

Nosdan 1207597656|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Further study suggests that Legria is more to do with Corruption, changing for the worse…

Re: Varied

Nosdan 1208016368|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The welsh have amrywia ~ to vary, amrywiad ~ variation and amrywiadol ~ varied, which in Cornish, i think, would be Dereydhya ~ to vary? Which would then mean Dereydhyans ~ variation and varied could be Dereydhyansek

My a dhereydhyas an brisyow gans ynhwedhians ~ I varied the prices with inflation.
An pedrevanes a dhiskwedhes meur a dhereydhyans y'ga liw ~ The lizards show great variation in their colours.

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Appointment

Nosdan 1207409232|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

There is the obvious loan word apoyntya for appoint for which i'm sure apoyntyans could mean appointment.

However I have found this word, Gorthrodhy to appoint, or substitute. I think its made of Gorth against and possibly an old form of Gift rodh. Again it could be very helpful verb as we havn't got a verb for substitute as far as I know!

Appointment could then be Gorthrodhyans? But perhaps more likely substitution?

Re: Appointment

Nosdan 1207490062|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

On further consultation Gorthrodhy contains Gorth + and a late form of ro - and therefore is probably better suited for to substitute,

However, I dont think you have a word for substitution…. Gorthri fits this.

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Wanted Dead or Alive!!!

Nosdan 1207409865|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Hwansys marow po byw???

To Announce

Nosdan 1208018893|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The welsh have Cyhoeddi which in Cornish could be something like, Keboblegi ~ to make public.

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Announcment

Nosdan 1208019116|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Building on to announce, Keboblegians ~ announcement, Welsh have Cyhoeddeb.

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Athlete

Nosdan 1208022082|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The Welsh have a curious word, mabolgampwr - the first part, mabol means son-like or boyish, equivalent of Cornish Mabek? and second part campwr - champion or Cornish, kampyer which would indicate a word like Mabekkampyer?

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To Inquire

Nosdan 1208359779|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

The Welsh have holi (v.) examine, inquire (enquire), ask, question, interrogate, quiz, query, (ask) Holi can be used to ask a question; it is to do with enquiry ("ymholiad", an enquiry, a seeking after information). "Holi" has to mean asking after information. (examine) Holi is to ask for information, to examine a person for his answers.

And if you look at some Cornish words you can see the same root verb. Gorholeth - requisition, bidding, asking, demand, request. and Gorholy - to require, ask (I would think that gorholy is to ask strongly! Perhaps even Demand). Both from Nance's dictionary. Both these words and the Welsh suggest a common root verb. Perhaps Holi Using this verb a possible construction for inquire would be ynholi ?

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Inquiry

Nosdan 1208359854|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Following from previous post…

Perhaps ynholians

To convince

Nosdan 1208432406|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Welsh use darbwyllo ~ to convince, urge, counsel or persuade, a Cornish version could then be darbrederi or dardybi

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To Crash

Nosdan 1208435076|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Welsh have Chwilfriwio ~ to crash, smash, shatter, dash, pulverise. Chwil means intense or extreme, very or thorough. Briwio is the same as Cornish Brywi

Perhaps we could use one of the many intensive prefixes to form something Devrywi, Gorvrywi, kolvrywi or Trebrywi

Turtle

Nosdan 1208441087|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Are you trying to differentiate between a tortoise and a turtle? You already have Melhwyoges for tortoise, a turtle is a sea going tortoise… So Melhwyoges an mor. The welsh have Crwban (for both i think), and I have seen Tim Saunders using Croban I would think from the welsh. I think im right that this in kemmyn would be Croeban

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Vanilla

Nosdan 1208530314|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

This is a word that I think we should NOT translate, rather spell accordingly. It comes from Spanish meaning little sheath, from a reduced Latin Vagina. So a hypothetical Goenik ~ Little sheath? or perhaps Kedhik Little pod.

I would be happier with something like Vanylla?

Juxtaposition / Juxtapose

Nosdan 1214847671|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

I was thinking the keskorra, already used for 'to put together' could mean juxtapose as well. And perhaps juxtaposition could be keskorrva, a more adverbial form could be a-geskorrva ~ In juxtaposition.

An fauvists a geskorras liwyow grev~The fauvists juxtaposed strong colors

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Struggle

Nosdan 1215335539|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

A struggle is sort of less than a fight so, omledhik

Compressor

Nosdan 1215338111|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

As in an air compressor, Gwaskell

sustainable

Anonymous (90.195.222.x) 1217888074|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

From sustena the verb. sustenadow

Sustainability

Nosdan 1217922825|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

From Sustenadow we could use Sustenadewder bit of a mouthful but follows excepted patterns.

Dessert

Nosdan 1217926497|%e %b %Y, %H:%M %Z|agohover

Either derive it from its roots… dis-serve from old french dis-servir which could render something very similar diservir?

Or,

Perhaps using something more colloquial, Afters - wesigow fromwosa + igow

or as in Welsh pudding~pwdin, podin